Good one!

I personally think they’re very much communist and place the group above the individual by far (all this stuff about doing their duty, acting “like a Cardassian,” the importance of family, etc). As such, it’s not all bad. People can be happy under a totalitarian regime, because joy is needed to stay alive, and in the face of adversity, finding joy might very well be a vital skill.

I think Cardassian society is harsh, full of paradoxes, and that all this authority that would, no doubt, be nothing but abuse and trauma for most aliens, does find a purpose in Cardassians. It still comes with abuse and trauma, but order makes it bearable for the group – not for the individual, but since the group is the identity, the group is what must remain functional for the individual to keep on functioning. To them, it’s not totalitarianism; it’s what they have.

I find this idea somewhat terrifying but fascinating at the same time. It has good sides, and lots of bad sides too.

You make some interesting points!  Remind me to respond to this when I am not half asleep.

I hope y’all don’t mind if i reblog?

I am glad other people are on “Cardassians place the group above the individual” headcanon train :)

And I think you are right @noxfoxarts in your ideas about group identity and how this would make life more bearable. I think that most Cardassians would also be raised to highly value security, therefore they would find it more acceptable to sacrifice their freedom for their own security and the security of their family and group- order would be seen as more valuable as well. (There are several fics over on Ad Astra that capture this beautifully).

Also I want to note here that I don’t think that placing the group above the individual, nor the Cardassian emphasis on family is wrong and it kinda bothers me that, to some extent, DS9 frames it as not good. I think that the Union’s use of such values to entrench support for xenophobia, racism, atrocities and harsh rule is wrong - but it would be my hope that Cardassia would find a way to move forward and use their culture of strong group loyalty for good, rather than replacing it entirely.

I def agree that Cardassians probably find happiness in life. I personally think that even if they don’t even have a strictly totalitarian regime, the government most likely strictly controls information (show trials, viewscreens everywhere, that sort of thing). So the average, ordinary Cardassian has literally no idea what life on other worlds is like. Because they don’t know that life could be less filled with fear and pain they would not suffer so much mentally as someone from the Federation, who would feel the loss of what their life could have been like.

This government indoctrination would also make it harder for Cardassians to see the evil in their society - both in how their government might treat its own civilians (show trials) and in how it treats non-Cardassians under Union rule (the Occupation of Bajor and its accompanying atrocities).

As I personally think morality is to some extent innate, I’d think that many Cardassians might feel some guilt over the harm their society is doing to itself and to others - but that would be drowned out by the overwhelming societal pressure to conform and to believe their governments propaganda.

If morality isn’t innate and is only taught, then they wouldn’t even have feelings of guilt most likely - I mean - with no innate morality how would you know that occupying and strip mining other worlds was wrong if you’d literally never heard otherwise?

More good stuff - some points I agree with and others that I don’t, but your contribution is more than welcome!  I always think it’s interesting to hear alternative interpretations presented in a well articulated manner!

ALL of this. I’m glad that someone agrees with my thought that Cardassian society is communist / socialist first, and (possibly) totalitarian second.

I think that is absolutely vital to understand in order to have a grasp on how Cardassia as a state and as a society works, and especially, how Cardassia as a state might go on to develop after the Dominion War.

I strongly disagree with Una McCormack’s vision of Cardassia as the pinnacle of a democratic state of law that values freedom of the press above most anything else, a mere 15 years into the future. Don’t get me wrong, I love Una McCormack’s books, and I think character wise, she has a lot more right than wrong. Plus, it’s good to see strong female characters flock on Cardassia, because let’s face it, Star Trek has so far been less than brilliant at that.

But I do take some issue with her assertion that the way to go is to transform Cardassia into, excuse me, Yet Another Federation Aligned System.

First of all, it’s not even likely, given what we know about Cardassians and their psyche, and second: even if they do go this way, fifteen years is a tiny amount of time to go through that huge a change, and my personal opinion is, it would leave most of the population even more traumatised, especially with trauma of war being at the forefront of everybody’s minds at the time.

But what bugs me most is that it’s just lazy thinking to assume everybody would thrive best (or at all) in that form of administration/philosophy. It would have been much more interesting to see how the Federation and Cardassia got along without assimilating Cardassia.

I’m saying “lazy thinking” because I want to avoid the word “arrogant”, but really that’s also an aspect if we’re honest. And, tangent alert, don’t even get me started on how eeeeeeverybody on Cardassia Prime who is not an antagonist seems to just love the ‘Fleeters stationed there; seriously? No.

Why not let them have something like the Khitomer Accords with the Klingons – who are as imperialist (which Cardassians are), sexist (which they are not, arguably), and undemocratic (which they are) as they come? Why not see how a more… organic, if you will… Cardassian state, and Union, could work out more or less peacefully with the Federation and other neighbours, after the war?

How would that play out in a system that assumes communism instead of The Individual Freedom ™ as the ideal?

How would their relationship with Bajor develop? The Klingons? The Romulan Empire, which I think is a very interesting question in itself? How would their justice system evolve? How would they cooperate with others to gain resources – let’s not forget that Cardassia is a very poor planet on its own, and that people will always take steps to ensure their survival: how would they do so, within their own societal structure, but without resorting to oppression, strip mining, and expansionism?

What about environmental politics? Prioritising scientific discovery over military tactics to meet their needs?

How will they deal with the fact that they used to be a police state? It’s not very likely that the whole Order is gone after Omarion – and even if so, the Order depended on collaboration to work as it did. Not everybody who worked with them probably was a specialist. What about normal people? How would they be held responsible? Would they be individually held responsible, or would responsibility be handled as a group instead?

All these things do not necessitate the sort of assimilation we see in Una McCormack’s books, and I can’t help but regret that.

On the other hand: more Post-Canon Cardassia to explore in transformative works!

If we look back at TNG, it should be fairly obvious that the Union has been largely isolationist until the events leading up to DS9.  Again, I’m not discussing the occupation of other worlds and subsequent actions taken, as I’m sure we can all agree those are negative policies.  However, it is likely that as a result of those policies and the influx of goods, no one on Cardassia is left wanting.  While I believe there is still something of a class system among Cardassians, I don’t think there is anyone starving.  In order for the State remain strong, all members of society must be provided for.  A healthy, happy Cardassian is a productive Cardassian.  It is not in the best interest of the State for people to be hungry or sick or homeless.  So while lower class citizens may have less fancy living accommodations or less refined meals, I don’t think that anyone of any status is going to bed with an empty stomach.

Yeah but Gul Madred tells that story about dirty feral kids running in packs on the street and fighting over eggs to the point of broken bones. So there obviously are people who are on the streets/starving at that point in time.

Unless Madred was an orphan or something and he’s talking about orphans who live on the streets.

Thoughts?

I assume orphans because they have no status, as opposed to just being low ranking.

I’ve always just assumed Madred was lying. It’s the only instance outside of McCormack’s books we hear that. (And I also ….well strongly dislike might cover it….her stories). He was in the midst of torturing someone - not exactly a point in time he would be completely obvious. Even if there was some truth to his story (he grew up in poverty, in an orphanage, etc and wanted a better life for his daughter) he may very well have embellished it.

And even if Madred was an orphan - it doesn’t make sense for the government to allow a bunch of orphans to run around feral. Makes far more sense for the State to house the orphans and force them to help assemble phase cannons or do household chores for legates and guls.

@myriadhallauglokadis I agree COMPLETELY with your criticism of McCormack’s books. Particularly your points on how every “good” character loves the Federation. It pissed me off so much I wrote 13k words of fanfiction on my freaking PHONE bc I had to have an alternative.

Even if Cardassia eventually developed into a more democratic society I would argue that it would take DECADES (if not centuries) and that that society would be fundamentally different from the Federation. Honestly, one of my major objections to Star Trek is that every alien culture/government that isn’t part of the Federation is more totalitarian or a colonial power or otherwise problematic. It would be interesting, imo, to have another, nominally democratic, power that was, for historical and cultural reasons, completely uninterested in being part of the Federation (although might be interested in peaceful trade or whatever).

I think that orphans do maybe run feral to a degree, those that are clever enough to avoid detection.  Otherwise, I think that orphans that show promise, those that show sufficient cleverness and resourcefulness, might be scooped up by Central Command or the Obsidian Order for training.  Otherwise, I think the ones that get caught might be… eliminated.

Those headcanons also fit well with what we know of Cardassian society. The Obsidian Order in particular I’d think would have a lot of uses for trainable children without any family or group attachments.

Perhaps that is an explanation for why orphans are allowed to run feral? It is not a lack of attention on the part of the state - rather the custom functions as a sort of natural selection process - and the end of it is that the survivors are funneled into either the Obsidian Order, or perhaps the military (if they are simply strong and not quite so clever). The state avoids the cost of raising young children, ensures only the strongest and cleverest are selected to serve the state, and in the process trains ruthless agents willing to do anything to please the organizations that took them in off the streets.

It would fit with the type of training we see in ASIT too.

You got it.  ;)

I always kind of assumed that any street orphans might get “adopted” into societal usage, be it labour camps where smaller bodies might fit better in the shafts, especially in less luxurious mining sites (I firmly believe Cardassians use their own in forced labour as well, if it’s the only way an individual is judged to be able to help society - and of course, then you also get provided for and whatnot, much better than being on the streets, no?) or, for instance, used as test subjects in medicine, something they’d also likely do with people deemed to be mentally un-Cardassian, as has been done in the past in my own country* when in its socialist high peaks. It was considered a kindness, because then those individuals would have a purpose in life, and what with the Cardassian talk about sacrifice, I think the sacrifice of ones comfort for the better of all would be a valid sacrifice.

Much more credible than most of I’ve seen go around. I’m a little in love with this thread.

Also regarding the forced labour, that is absolutely true. We know they send their own to labour camps as punishment when they’re convicted for crimes (Kelas Parmak), so I do not believe they would not do so with other individuals that are judged to be unproductive otherwise.